Why are flags appearing in greater
numbers on English streets? And why does
the prime minister say that there is a
danger they could be devalued and
belittled? That's what we'll be
discussing on this episode of Newscast.
>> Hello, it's James in Glasgow
>> and it is Chris back at Westminster
>> and we're joined by Matt Charlie, fresh
from his interview with the prime
minister. Hello Matt.
>> Uh yeah, hi. Yeah, I'm not I'm sadly not
any longer in the cabinet room. They
kicked me out.
>> No. Well, I suppose that's reasonable
because it was summer ago. I suppose you
could have tried to hide under the desk.
Maybe you'd have got some amazing
scoops.
>> Well, actually, it was worse than that.
So, basically what happened, I
interviewed, which we'll come to, I
interviewed K Star Dama in the cabinet
room today live on my five live show. It
was supposed to be in the garden. They
thought it'd be a nice relaxed chat in
the garden, but as we were walking to
Down Street, the heavens opened. So,
then they moved us to the terra cotta
room, which is one of the uh sort of uh
reception rooms upstairs. And I was just
frantically rewriting all of my facts
about the garden to be facts about the
tele costume. And then they came and
said, "Uh, actually, we're going to
move. We've got permission. You can do
it in the cabinet room." So then went
down to the cabinet room, which
obviously much more exciting. But in the
minutes as the clock ticked down to 2:00
and us going live from the cabinet room,
I was basically just googling facts
about the cabinet room because I had
sort of 5 minutes at the top of the
program while the prime minister was uh
was joining us.
>> I I think it'd be a great shame if those
facts about the terra cotta room went to
waste. Have you got a fact about the
terra cotta room to house?
>> Do you do you? Yes, I can. I can tell
you. It was uh it's not always been
terra cotta. I think this is off the top
of my head. I think it was blue in the
70s and 80s and then Margaret Thatch had
it repainted green.
>> Uh and then it was during the naughties
it became terra cotta. And this is this
is it interesting. We'll find out. Um
when Margaret Thatcher had quite a lot
of work done, she uh there's lots of
sort of plaster work and sort of twiddly
bits all around the you know the
cornises and all of that. And in one of
them above the door is a little man
carrying uh some thatch who's a roofer a
Thatcher a literal Thatcher and that was
put in as a little you know nod to
market that was
>> okay that that actually was more
interesting than I thought it was going
to be. Right. We'll talk about your
actual interview shortly, which was also
interesting, I should say. But before
that, Chris, the prime minister, who's
actually had quite a busy today, has
been saying um that phase two of my
government starts today, and that
includes a bit of a shakeup, not not
necessarily a huge shakeup, but
something of a shakeup in government,
particularly inside number 10. What's
been happening?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's been a
reshuffle, but not the kind of
traditional one where you see people
walking up Downing Street and becoming
the Secretary of State for this or that
and waving a red box and smiling and and
all that kind of stuff. Instead, it's
been another reshuffle within 10 Downing
Street. So, we we've seen it before. You
remember about a year ago on newscasters
talking rather a lot about Sue Gray, the
first chief of staff for Karma, and the
volcanic rows there were about her and
then she didn't last very long and she
was replaced. We saw the original
director of communications, Matthew
Doyle, leaving in March and uh a change
there and various other changes that
we've seen at various points too. What
we've seen today from the prime minister
was about 9:30 this morning. I was still
putting on my new shoes for the new term
and setting off in and all this was
beginning to to happen. Darren Jones,
who was the chancellor's deputy, was the
chief secretary to the treasury. He's
going into 10 Downing Street to become
still a chief secretary, but chief
secretary to the prime minister, which
is a new title. And and his appointment
alongside a new economics adviser with
an economic CV that is hefty to put it
mildly, and a new principal private
secretary, civil servant who is the kind
of main gatekeeper to a prime minister.
incidentally also from the Treasury and
various other changes here and there. A
new executive director of
communications, a guy called Tim Allen,
who used to work in Downing Street a
million years ago under uh under Tony
Blair. Um what they're trying to do is
give Downing Street more oomph and more
direction and more grip at the center of
government. The thing is, we've heard
them make that argument before about
previous changes and now they're making
more changes. some people moving from
one job to another, some people out the
door and other people in. Uh so it you
know I think it speaks to an
acknowledgement from the prime minister
and he was reflecting on this in his
conversation with Matt that they need to
get better at delivering at actually
doing stuff that people can see because
as the prime minister's acknowledged
there is a gap for many people between a
single word slogan in a general election
campaign which was change get getting
albeit on a small share of the vote for
the scale of their victory a colossal
landslide victory and then plenty of
people when you look at the opinion
polls now saying well what was that
change what is that change does it
amount to much do I like it and the
opinion poll suggests a lot of people
are not impressed
>> yeah and newscasters are very well
informed so some newscasters may indeed
know some of the names you're talking
about there but I would think it's fair
to say that not everyone will know all
of the names and so I wonder Matt if if
then as Chris says the point really here
is not necessarily who exactly these
these people are, but the fact that the
prime minister thought he needed to make
these changes at all.
>> Yeah. And I think it speaks to and we'll
hear when we hear the interview with the
prime minister, I I sort of made the
point to him that we were told before
they came into government that this was
going to be the most ready incoming
government ever. They'd got Sue Gray.
They'd got the team in place. They were
going to hit the ground running. You
know, the work of change begins now or
whatever it was he said outside uh
number 10. And actually now we're being
told, oh no, that team wasn't right. So
we got a new one. and then that one
wasn't right. So now we've got a new
one. And and so I said to him, well,
doesn't that look a bit actually the
word I used was silly if within 12
months you've had to have three reboots
of your team? And there's an interest.
You're you're completely right. People
don't need to know about the
individuals, but just know that, you
know, if you worked in a business where
uh everyone just below the top boss kept
on changing uh within 12 months, you'd
start to think, well, what's going on
here? Have they not do they not know
what they want to do? And I think
certainly speak to some Labour MPs, even
some Labour ministers privately, they
will say that this goes actually to the
heart of Karma and whether or not he
really knows what it is he wants to do
and how he wants to go about doing it.
And you can keep changing all the people
around the top boss, but eventually you
have to ask well what is there a problem
with his approach to to doing the job?
That's in no way suggested that anyone
serious I've spoken to talks about
removing K star as prime minister. He
told me he's going to definitely lead
them into the next election. But there's
a sort of anyone in any organization
who's been through endless reboots and
remmanagement restructures will know
that if that happens three times in 12
months, you know, that's not a sign of
an organization which is which is firing
on all cylinders and and knows exactly
what it's all about.
>> No. And Chris, there's another senior
figure in the government who I suppose
you know you might just ask a question
or two about given one of the other um
shuffling of the chairs that's gone on.
So this is a former deputy governor of
the bank of England Baroness Manush
Shafi coming in as the prime minister's
economic adviser.
>> But the question there is what does that
mean for the chancellor? What does that
mean for Rachel Reeves? Does does that
tell us anything that she's that the
number 10 isn't pleased? Doesn't think
she's delivering? Does it undermine her
authority? Well, you know who why why
does the prime minister need this
person? Julie's got the chancellor as
effectively his senior economic adviser.
>> Yeah, I I I think you know the
chancellor wouldn't be a human being, I
think, if that thought hadn't at least
passed across her mind, whatever
reassurances she might have had from
Downing Street. Bar Shafi's economics
CV, her CV as an economist is
extraordinary. you know, off the top of
my head, not only has she been uh the
lead civil servant in a government
department, which is quite an
achievement in itself. Uh she's worked
at the Bank of England in a senior role,
she's worked at the International
Monetary Fund, she's worked at the World
Bank, and she was the director of the
London School of Economics. I mean, any
one of those things might point that to
a certain economic pedigree. All of them
is extraordinary. And you know if we
rewind the historical clock you know you
can point to going back more than a
generation to the thatcher era the
tensions between an economics advisor in
10 Downing Street and a chancellor were
there then. Now I'm not saying there
will be necessarily right now and
Downing Street would argue look clearly
the economy its sluggishness finding
economic growth is absolutely central.
Um, and therefore, why would you not
want as much economics firepower around
a prime minister as you can get? But
yeah, I mean, it's quite the it's quite
the sort of land grab, if you like,
because not only has Rachel Reeves lost
her deputy, who clearly the government
highly regard because he's just got a
job in 10 Downing Street. The new
principal private secretary has come
from the Treasury, then there's Baroness
Shrafi with that extraordinary economics
economist's uh CV. So yeah, it's quite
it's quite something and and any sort of
thought within the Treasury that they
have a monopoly on economic wisdom has
been rather sort of taken on by this uh
you know these sequence of hirings.
>> Yeah, certainly interesting. Right,
Matt, all of this takes us to your
interview with the prime minister and
we're going to play that in a minute in
full just in a second. But you know my
question is
you always have limited time especially
with you have limited time by definition
with any interview but particularly with
the prime minister. How do you decide
what to ask?
>> Well, I had this exact conversation with
Chris a couple of hours before I went
into uh into number 10. And actually,
essentially what happened is over the
weekend, so I I had been speaking to
number 10 for a while over the summer
just to sort of lift the curtain on a
bit of this. And uh then hadn't really
heard anything and then I was on my way
back from holidays on Friday when I got
a call saying, "Yes, we're on uh you can
come and do it um from the garden in uh
in number 10 Monday afternoon." So, I
sort of spent the weekend mulling over
some of the areas that I might like to
cover the sort of, oh, that's a clever
question. I woke up this morning when I
had a brilliant idea, you know, in in my
sleep as to a question I was going to
ask and then immediately forgot it. So,
I'm really sort of mulling it over and
then I arrive in the BBC offices in
Milbank and everyone I bump into uh
suddenly has an idea. I could have I
could have been talking to Kar for 10
hours and still not have used up all the
questions, I think. Yes. So I had uh BBC
colleagues in Milbank. I had um uh five
live colleagues uh in Sulford. Uh I bump
as I was walking from Milbank to Danish
to do the interview in the rain. I
bumped into I think three different
people who had various ideas of things.
Ultimately number 10 said you can have
10 minutes. Now normally and Chris will
know this. They tell you 10 minutes. You
think well I'll try and push it to 12
maybe 15 if I can. And uh because it was
live they can't sort of leap in front of
the cameras. They might do as a
pre-recorded thing. Uh but I was very
aware that just out the sort of corner
of my left eye if I kept turning I could
sort of pretend they weren't there. Uh
but then they started WhatsAppapping me
um while mid interview and it was sort
of popping up on my phone and on my um
my laptop that I was using for uh my
questions. So in the end I thought I'm
going to ask about the stuff that Five
Live listeners have been talking about
all over the summer. That is a general
sense of frustration with the government
which actually plays into the
conversation we've just been having at
the the mini internal reshuffle. Uh the
issue of asylum hotels and actually
Pisto appears to have committed news on
on that by suggesting he wants to bring
forward the date to shut them. Um flags
like it or not the country's been
talking about flags. Are you putting
them up? Is it patriotic? Is it racist?
That was definitely an issue. He wanted
to talk about child care. So that went
on the list. Um and then uh we sort of
we sort of started hurtling towards
running out of time. So I didn't get to
talk about Donald Trump which I wanted
to touch on Gaza that I wanted to. And
there was a interesting article in the
Guardian at the weekend after his kiss
on his team Arsenal. Lost and they
compared the style of Arsenal losing
1-0il to Liverpool to um star ball sort
of just very steady as you go, no
attempt to sort of win anything, hope
that the other side loses. And I wanted
to know how he felt about that that he's
now been compared to a lackluster
performance about uh by um his football
team. But we didn't get there. We got we
got as much as we could. and let's have
a listen to it right now.
>> Ka, welcome to Five Lot.
>> Thank you very much for having me on my
annual appearance.
>> It is it is almost exactly a year to the
day we we last spoke. Just tell me what
it was like the first time because I was
just telling our listeners about the
history in this room. What's it like the
first time you walk in here as prime
minister?
>> Quite incredible. And for your listeners
um just to describe there's a long
almost oval table with an assigned chair
for every member of the cabinet. Uh the
prime minister's chair is the one here
to my left. It's always uh in the middle
as you'd expect. And I think my first
appreciation was just to think of all
the decisions that have been made in
this room. This has been used for
decades. So in the first world war, the
second world war, all those prime
ministers and their teams sitting in
this room to make huge decisions about
the future of our country. So I said I I
felt a real sense of history but also of
privilege to be able to come in and sit
in the prime minister's chair in this
the cabinet room. It's quite an
incredible room. Let's talk about some
of the decisions then that you've made.
It's all it's just over a year ago since
you made a speech outside in the garden
where we were going to be until the the
heavens
>> until the rain decided otherwise
>> and you told voters then that things
were going to get worse before they get
better. They look at what's happened
since then, whether it's uh number of
small boat crossings, um strikes in the
NHS, uh the state of the economy, they
still think feel like things are getting
worse. We've had so many messages this
afternoon of sort of expressing a a
frustration. People want to know when
things are going to get better.
>> Yeah, I get that that frustration
because after 14 years of the last
government, people voted for change and
they want change. The reason I said a
year or so ago that it'll take time is
because I wanted to level with the
public that after 14 years worth of
failure, public services, the economy,
you name it, it was going to take time
to turn it around. Um and um that is
frustrating because people want change
as quickly as possible. I completely get
that and I want it as quickly as
possible. I think here a year on in what
I would say is we spent the first year
sort of fixing the foundations if you
like doing the hard yards but we now
enter into sort of phase two of the
government which is where we focus on
delivery delivery delivery and start to
show what a difference a Labor
government really makes. And so yes it
was always going to take time. The
urgency and the frustration I completely
understand. I want to go further and
faster. Um, and that's amongst the
reasons I've done some changes here in
number 10 today to make number 10 more
powerful to drive through the changes
that we need.
>> I was going to ask you about that
because before the election we were told
repeatedly that Labour is going to be
the most ready incoming government in
history. You've now reshuffled your team
three times in a year. Starts to look a
bit silly, doesn't it?
>> Well, I'd take you back a step. When I
took over as leader of the Labour Party,
I said there would be sort of three
phases to this. um you've got to sort of
build the fundamentals first and then
you move on to the second stage. So this
should be seen more as moving on to the
second phase than a reshuffle because
some of the positions are actually new
positions. The chief secretary to the
prime minister reflection never actually
you haven't brought about the change
that you promised.
>> Look I do want to go further and faster
and yes I'm frustrated about that. We've
got no not angry I'm frustrated. I get
the um frustration and anger of voters
because they want change. I mean for a
very long time most people feel that
their living standards haven't gone up,
their public services aren't what they
deserve and they're not really getting
back what they are putting in. So I want
to deliver that change as quickly as
possible. Today is about moving on to
that second phase. As I say, delivery is
the absolutely key word and that's why
I'm really pleased with the changes
today and actually bringing a senior
politician alongside me here in number
10 to focus on that delivery. um should
be seen as a sign of my determin
>> um as your your chief secretary to the
prime minister. There's lots I want to
ask you about. So let let's let's move
on to some of the specifics. You
promised to smash the gangs. So far the
only thing you've smashed is the the
record for the number of people coming
in small boats. How are you going to win
back the trust of voters who at the
moment think that Nigel Farage and
Reform UK have been making all the
running on this? Yeah, let me first
acknowledge um it's a really serious
issue. We have to have control of our
borders. Um and I completely get it and
um I'm determined that whether it's
people crossing in the first place,
whether it's people in asylum hotels or
whether it's returning people, we
absolutely have to deal with this. Um
when it comes to the asylum hotels, I
want them emptied. I've been really
clear about that. that I completely
understand why people are so concerned
about it. The only way to empty them is
an orderly systematic working through of
the cases as quickly as possible and
then um returning those people who
should not be here. I'm really pleased
that in the first year of Labor
government, we've returned 35,000 people
who shouldn't be here. But again, I want
to go further and faster and let me be
absolutely clear through you. I want to
see every single asylum hotel closed.
The way to do that is in an orderly way
um that actually gets the cases done not
and here's the big divide
because you put to me Nigel fraud that
the difference here is between an
orderly sensible way of actually fixing
a problem we inherited from the Tories
or fanciful arrangements that just not
going to work. I mean Nigel Farage and
reform are just the politics of
grievance. They feed on grievance. They
don't want the problems solved because
they've got no reason to exist if the
problems are solved. And so the contrast
in politics is a Labor government
rebuilding, renewing the country in the
way that we said we would or this
politics of grievance that um simply
puts forward unworkable, fanciful ideas
that are actually not fair to the public
to put forward yet again ideas that just
aren't going to work. But let me take
you to one of these towns where there is
an asylum hotel. How would you feel if
it was a hotel at the end of your road?
If your daughter was having to walk past
one of these hotels every day, how would
that make you feel?
>> I completely get it. I mean, local
people by and large do not want these
hotels in their towns, in their place.
Um, and nor do I. I'm completely at one
with them on that. not um in any way um
um underestimating the strength of
feeling that there is because people
strongly feel um that um these claims
should be processed. People shouldn't be
held at spend.
>> They don't want that hotel at the end of
the road. They're trying to live their
lives. Their children they're worried if
their children are safe.
>> Well, look, I understand why people want
the hotels closed. I want them closed
and I will work um across the board to
close them as quickly as possible. That
is my aspiration. Every one of those
hotels closed down as quickly as
possible. Well, we the way to do that is
to work through the backlog.
>> Can you put a date on it?
>> Well, we've said we'll get rid of them
all by the end of the parliament. I'd
like four years.
>> I'd like to bring that forward. I think
it's a good challenge. I want to bring
that forward and part of the change in
um the phasing of government is to say
what we need to do needs to go further
and faster and be brought forward. But
do I understand why people are concerned
about asylum hotels? Absolutely I do. Do
I share their feeling that they should
be closed as soon as possible? Yes, I
do. But we've got to have a sensible way
of actually doing that and not a
fancible proposition. And it's all very
easy for Nigel Far to put out fancible
propositions um that aren't going to
work. It's actually not fair to the
public to keep pretending that these
answers are there. And you know, these
are people who just talk down our
country. They want the problems to
persist. Nigel Far doesn't want these
problems to go away. Um because once the
problem's gone, he's got no grievance.
He's got nothing for his politics to
attach to.
>> Well, he would say he does want this
problem solved and he said he's got
plans. Let me move on to other I'm
conscious we we've got a limited amount
of time. Over the summer, one of the
things we've seen an awful lot of is
people putting up flags. St. George's
flags, Union Jacks. It sparked such a
debate on Five Live. Some people say
it's patriotic, some people say it's
racist. Which is it?
>> I'm a supporter of flags. Um,
>> you are sitting with one. You've got a
Union Jack behind you.
>> I've got one behind me. I was the
>> Are you a supporter of people painting
roundabouts and hanging them from land?
>> Look, I I I'm I'm the leader of the
Labour Party. Put the Union Jack on our
Labour Party membership cards. Um, I
always sit in front of a Union Jack.
I've been doing it for years and it
attracted a lot of comment when I
started doing it. And in our flat, which
is upstairs from here, as you know, um
we've got the St. George's um flag in
our um in our flat. So, you're you're
encouraging people to put up more flags.
>> I'm very encouraging of um flags. I
think they're patriotic. Um and um I
think they're a great symbol of our
nation. I don't think they should be
devalued and belittled. And I think
sometimes when they're used purely for
divisive purposes, it actually devalues
the flag. I don't want to see that. I'm
proud of our flag. Um I sit in front of
our flag and I'm very very proud to do
so. Let me ask about about some other
topics. making a big announcement today
on child care 9 billion pounds big
expansion of uh uh of uh of childare
support 30 hours free child care for
those parents who are eligible but
there's a big problem isn't there people
saying the big long waiting list it's
one thing you have in the pledge lots of
parents saying it's hard to get get the
places well look let's firstly um say
how important this is is this 30 hours
of free child care that's from age 9
months through to reception year this is
fantastically important for parents and
carers who can go and get on with
whatever they want to get on with for
many of them that may well be going back
into work um improving their own economy
and the national economy. For children
it's hugely important that a child
that's been in child care by the time
they get to reception year is likely to
be far ahead of children who haven't had
that opportunity. And you hear these
stories that are real about the
disparity in four-year-olds, some
arriving in nappies, some quite
articulate that is a lifechanging
difference at the age of four. this is
going to help close that gap. True it
is. We've got to make sure as we are
doing we've got the right staff in the
right place. I was really pleased and I
just double checked this before coming
on here that nine out of 10 parents have
got the nursery of choice for their
child care. So the system is working and
this I think for all of your um
listeners who've got children this is a
real gamecher in terms of what it does
for the parent and the car but also what
it does for the child. Um, I want to
make sure every child can go as far as
their talent takes them. That means
starting at age four with the best
possible chance and this gives them that
chance. I'm really proud of what we're
announcing today. I think this is the
difference that a Labor government
makes. Let me ask you about you've
talked about your changing your team.
One person you haven't changed is Angela
Raina, your your deputy and uh and
housing secretary. Lots of stories about
her uh questions over her housing and
her tax arrangements. Some close to her
saying, "Look, this is sexist, classist,
misogynistic. Is she the the victim of a
briefing war or has she got questions to
answer?
>> Look, Andrew is deputy prime minister of
this country. That's an incredible
um achievement and um Angela came from
very humble um background, battled all
sorts of challenges along the way and
there she is proudly and I'm proud of
her as our deputy prime minister. And
one of the things that drives me in
politics is aspiration is opportunity
for people to go as far as their talent
will take them. I'm really pleased that
Andrea's briefing war.
>> Well, look, um, she Andrew has had
people briefing against her and talking
her down, uh, over and over again. It's
a big mistake, by the way. Um, Andrew is
an incredible prime minister, an
incredible person.
>> Deputy said prime minister,
>> deputy prime minister, but and and what
what a great story of of British success
that we are a country where Andrew Raina
can be our deputy prime minister. I'm
proud of that. I think we should be
proud as a country um that Andrew Raina
is our deputy prime minister and that by
the way will give I don't know how many
workingclass children um particularly
girls a real sense of aspiration they
will look at Andrew and think and I can
do something like that what a brilliant
thing
>> before I let you go it's your birthday
tomorrow we always seem to speak around
your birthday what does Kama want for
his birthday
>> well mainly for people not to really
acknowledge it because it comes to a
stage where you don't want to. But our
daughter is 14. She's um going around
the flat saying, "Are you excited? It's
the eve of your birthday." She ceased
already celebrating. I'm trying to play
it lowkey, but I don't think our kids
will let us get away with that.
>> Without being rude, come the next
election, you're going to be a few weeks
away from your state pension. Are you
>> trying to be rude, aren't you?
>> Are you definitely going to lead Labor
into the next election to do a full
term?
>> I am definitely going to lead them into
the next election. I've always said this
is a decade of national renewal. Um I'm
really um proud and privileged to lead
this country as prime minister. I intend
to do that until the next um election
and um that project of renewal um is
absolutely integral to the next phase of
this government and then on into the
next election and beyond that.
>> Karma, really appreciate your time
today. Happy birthday for tomorrow.
>> Thank you. Karma the prime minister
joining me live in his cabinet room.
>> So that was the prime minister talking
to Matt Charlie on five live. What stood
out for you, Chris?
>> So, I think that line that Matt
mentioned just as we began listening to
the interview about migration hotels is
interesting because there he was not
only repeating the long-standing promise
to close them all by the next general
election, but wanting to do it sooner.
Now, he didn't put a time frame on what
sooner might mean, but he didn't
necessarily have to say that. So, I
think that is interesting and was
newsworthy. I thought it was intriguing
uh that uh he talked about having a St.
George's flag in his flat because he's
always talked in the past about how the
flat in very much a private and family
space as opposed to any sense of
workplace. Um but I thought it was
interesting that he volunteered that.
Now whether that's a flag that was
flying um because of the football a
while back or is it because of England
rugby? I don't know. It was I was just
intrigued by that particularly you know
the St. George's flag uh as opposed to
the Union. The Union
>> I have to say I was kicking myself after
that. It's one of those things where in
the split second there was an obvious
follow-up of where is this flag when we
were on the radio Chris you were
speculating you know was it his bed
spread? Is it a towel? Um and of all the
things I wish I'd leapt on and said what
do you mean you've got a flat who why
have you got a flag in your flat? Where
is it? What is it? What's it doing? Is
it a tea towel? How big is it?
>> Fridge magnet.
>> On the subject on the subject wherever
it is. Um, he was very careful, Chris,
wasn't he, with his words, the prime
minister, around the flags that have
been appearing around England in terms
of the St. George's Cross and the Union
flag. It's quite interesting. Just at
the weekend there, I was driving through
a part of Glasgow and there was a salt
tire on every single lampost for a good
couple of miles. And I'd come from a an
anti-immigration protest at which people
had been flying not just the Union flag,
which you might expect from that
particularly um British crowd, quite a
unionist crowd, but also the Sultar. And
there's something going on here as well.
But to the to the English question,
first of all, that the prime minister
was quite careful, wasn't he? Although
he he did say that they could be
devalued and belittled if used for
divisive means, which is very
interesting.
>> Yeah. So he was he was he clearly
thought through how he was going to take
on that line of questioning because he
wanted to embrace the flag. I mean as
Matt said in the interview he had to
because I mean he had one behind him. Um
and also you know Labour had been doing
that you know that was part that was a
big part of the visual element of the
rebrand of Labour when Karma took over
from uh from Jeremy Corbyn. So he wanted
to be proud of the flags and then also
if you like proud in this collection of
nations that is the UK that you can have
overlapping uh loyalty to flags whether
that might be the soul tire or the union
flag and of course some might not have
an affinity towards the union flag but
have one to the soul tire or indeed the
St. George's flag and the Union flag,
etc., etc. And he wanted to acknowledge
that that is entirely not only perfectly
reasonable, but something he himself
actively embraces, not least with that
line about the um about the St. George's
flag in the in the flat, but at the same
time, whilst not wanting to, if you
like, fan the flames of some of the uh
spikier elements of the argument around
flags, and as uh some might see it, the
the case for placing flags in lots of
the places they've been springing up in
recent weeks, acknowledge the argument
that others would be making listening to
newscast or listening to Five Live of
Hang on a minute, are at least some of
those uh flags that have been appearing
on motorway bridges etc etc in the last
few weeks being done so by those who
have a divisive intent. I think that was
broadly the language that he was he was
using there. So I I I think that was him
attempting to or at least setting out to
neatly acknowledge both sides of the
argument and if you like reclaim that
association with the flag because it's
it's fascinating isn't it? the the the
the the
median sentiment of a average even using
the word average Brit is a ludicrous one
in the context of flags obviously but
where is the median sentiment of a
person in the UK about flags and is it
and I just float this as a thought is it
one of a lowkey pride but perhaps more
often than not a reluctance to wave it
garishly unless perhaps
Scotland are in the World Cup or England
are in the Euros or you know there's a
particular reason and so hearing that
conversation that we've had about flags
in the UK over the summer I think is
often through that prism of a median
instinct to have a lowkey pride rather
than as you see in some countries not
least the United States a far more overt
willingness to kind of just have them
everywhere all the time really to a
greater or lesser extent. I think I
think it's definitely complicated by the
by the nature of this of this country
and and and of the the different flags
meaning different things to different
people at different times. I I think
you're broadly there, Chris, talking
about the the the the Englishman or
women's median position with regards to
the St. George's flag or the Union flag.
And then when you get into other parts
of the UK, of course, that becomes I'm
it becomes, as you acknowledge, it
becomes much more complicated, doesn't
it? I mean, there's definitely more way
more of a crossover between the Union
flag and the St. George's Cross than
there has traditionally been between the
Sult and the Union flag, for example, or
at least in the last quarter of a
century or so. And and I think that's
what's really I'm really intrigued by
what's happening here as to whether some
people on the right are trying to
reclaim the salt tire for the Union and
to say this is our flag as well. Gordon
Brown after he was prime minister made a
speech along those lines about
reclaiming um some of Scot Scotland and
its national identity on the eve of
Scotland voting and the independence
referendum. So I mean there's there's so
much complexity here but Matt just out
of interest what what are five live
listeners
>> um saying you said this was coming up a
lot yeah this has been coming up a lot
and over the past couple of weeks you
know the phonins
>> uh uh on five Live the messages and
what's great is the I mean while I was
sitting in the cabinet room uh talking
to the prime minister I could see on my
screen if I toggled between tabs my list
of questions but also the texts coming
in and you know and I can see that the
whole time when I'm on air as as kind of
all five life presenters and then
listeners come on and they take part in
phonies and that was why I wanted to ask
him this question because I think
sometimes it's one of those things where
the country has been talking about
something and of course and this list
has got in touch to point out a whole
long list of other things which they
think are more important than flags but
as a um a topic which the country has
been talking about five live listers I
think split right down the lines that
you that Chris was just talking about um
it's why I wanted to ask him the you
know, is putting up all these flags, is
it patriotic or is it racist? Because
actually, you get both arguments being
put all the time um to Five Live
Listeners. So, that's why I wanted to
ask because I think it's interesting
what the prime had to say. I was I found
that he was more, this is a strange
sentence, he was more pro- flag than I
was expecting. I thought he could have
battered it away and not waded into it,
which I thought was interesting. And
actually, while um Chris was talking
about, you know, comparing flying the
flag in the UK to maybe the US, you
reminded me of um I do a feature on my
five live show every week called 2 PMQs.
When I take a guest 2 PMQ's and then at
2 p.m. we talk about it and a few weeks
ago, I took Matt Goss from Boss and um
over lunch we had this really
interesting conversation. He used to
live in the US. He had a residency in
Vegas. Uh, and now he's come back to the
UK. And then we end up having this
conversation on air as well. And he was
saying he found it strange having been
in the US where everyone fires the flag.
It's just everywhere. It's on, it's not
just, you know, sort of town center flag
pole. It's in people's gardens. It's
hanging off the back of a truck. It's
tattoos. It's everywhere. And then
having come back to the UK and suddenly
finding everyone's bit a bit weird about
the flag. And even at that point it
struck up quite an interesting response
from listeners that it is clearly
something that sometimes people feel a
bit awkward about talking about and and
clearly some people are awkward uh
nervous about uh talking about it
because it is the case that in some
areas people are using the flag putting
them up to say this is a symbol of we do
not want these hotels here these these
asylum seekers here but then it's opened
up a much broader conversation.
>> Exactly. And to that exact point, the
the the um anti-asylum hotels protest
that I was at in Falkerk in in central
Scotland um on Saturday,
there was a mix of people there, all
sorts of different some people were
local, some people had come in, some
people were were supporters of the of
the the the farright provocator Tommy
Robinson. There were other people who
were saying they were simply concerned
about local housing and and amenities
and so on. One person at one point made
a speech saying, "Keep Britain white,
keep Scotland white," at the end of the
speech, which was very, very striking.
And there were a lot of flags flying at
that protest. As I say, there were there
was the Union flag and the salt and
indeed the other Scottish flag, the lion
rampant. And and there's been more,
Chris, discussion about these hotels
today, hasn't there? The home secretary
of vet Cooper has been telling the
commons um on the subject of of well if
not the subject of hotels themselves but
on the subject of bringing family
members here that she's suspending all
applications from people who are here to
bring family members to the UK under the
asylum system. Is is that right? Have I
got that right?
>> Exactly that. So, so the the rules as
set out up until now allowed uh refugees
to apply to bring immediate family which
was defined as a partner either a
married or unmarried uh partner um and
children under 18. The argument that
Iette Cooper made is that there are
other European countries that at least
have a delay before that is possible for
perhaps a couple of years. And she
announced today that she is suspending
the right of refugees to be able to
request that for now whilst they work
out what they do uh in the uh in the
medium and long term. And there's
statistics that point to a recent uptick
in the number of um uh family members
who have come and that that then
contributes obviously to the overall
numbers but can also make housing a
particular issue. And you talked about
the stress that it can place on
>> local authorities in terms of the
potential for uh homelessness.
>> And do you think this is a signal,
Chris, that this is going to dominate
politics more widely in the coming
weeks?
>> Uh yeah, the short answer is yes. And
and there's two reasons for that. It's
to be try and be as pathy as I can. One
is that this issue just matters. It is
salient. It resonates with so so many
people. I was looking at a poll from the
middle of last week that put uh
immigration and asylum as the most
important issue to more people than any
other issue at the moment. So there's
that point. And then there's secondly I
think a point where even if your own uh
baggage of concerns about what the
government or the country is up to
doesn't put this issue particularly high
up. It's just a very transparent example
of government failure. It was for the
last governments and it is for this one.
Uh because if you're attempting whatever
your own view about this particular
issue, if you are attempting to say or
you are saying we're going to stop
people crossing the channel on small
boats because either you're going to, as
Rishi Sunnak said, stop the boats and he
didn't or you're going to smash the
gangs and well either you're not or
they're still coming anyway, then it's a
transparent example of failure. And when
you have a party as adept at
communication as reform are able to
point to that day in day out as they
were doing over the summer then that is
a big big big issue. So yeah absolutely
we're going to see that and and the
government trying to make a case that
iterative solutions like this idea
around families like looking at the
whole business of the European
Convention on Human Rights like looking
at returns agreement with France and
sending people back etc etc. Can that
over time add up to something which they
can credibly point to is making a
difference. Answer yes and maybe the
salenas is off. Answer no. And well it
doesn't and a lot of the politics of
what we see at the moment I think will
continue or potentially step up.
>> Yeah. Really interesting. Much more of
that to come. Christopher, thanks very
much and Matt, thank you. Very
interesting to hear your interview.
>> Good speaking. Cheers. Thank Thank you
both.